Curse

Paperfly · Aug 01, 2006, 01:26 PM // 13:26

I'd like to echo something a couple of others have said here: Thanks to the OP, because this is a useful guide to

What builds will be in high demand at the weekend event

it is not an optimised setup - several people have made some important corrections already. But it is very valuable to those of us who just want to sneak into groups with those characters we have who can easily be adapted to a cookie-cutter role.

...Of course, some of us will do some experimenting in a couple of off slots, just to infuriate any little Napoleons running the team. Nothing gamebreaking, mind, just a Ward Against Melee in the nuking build or something.

Rent · Aug 01, 2006, 01:27 PM // 13:27

If you plan on clearing The Deep in ~an hour, you probably don't want to bring an assassin. Nor do I bring a rit. Nor do I bring a BIP necro. I've never brought a mesmer, but that's mainly because I've never tried. I just know that my group composition works, even if I build my parties out of PuGs, and it works exceptionally well.

Also: Yes, for The Deep, it's best for your warriors to have some kind of knockdown. Shove is ideal, as is Shock, or just be a hammer war. I see monks carrying Shield of Judgment these days, but just ugh. I'd rather have my monks monking. Also, Spinal Shivers is excellent on the last boss and there's no reason for a necro not to bring it.

gamemagus · Aug 01, 2006, 01:30 PM // 13:30

I wish I could play this weekend, ah well better luck next time for me!

Bane of Worlds · Aug 01, 2006, 01:37 PM // 13:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rent

If you plan on clearing The Deep in ~an hour, you probably don't want to bring an assassin. Nor do I bring a rit. Nor do I bring a BIP necro. I've never brought a mesmer, but that's mainly because I've never tried. I just know that my group composition works, even if I build my parties out of PuGs, and it works exceptionally well.

Also: Yes, for The Deep, it's best for your warriors to have some kind of knockdown. Shove is ideal, as is Shock, or just be a hammer war. I see monks carrying Shield of Judgment these days, but just ugh. I'd rather have my monks monking. Also, Spinal Shivers is excellent on the last boss and there's no reason for a necro not to bring it.

why hate on the rit?
besides you really can't expect a PUG to clear the elite missions in an hour

Rent · Aug 01, 2006, 01:38 PM // 13:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eve The Sorceress

why hate on the rit?
besides you really can't expect a PUG to clear the elite missions in an hour

I tried using a rit, but I found that having a spirit spammer doesn't really help all that much in my groups.

And yeah, I can. I usually have ~3 people from my alliance when I go anyway, and once I figured out the inner workings of the Deep, I have yet to have a group fail. Some do it faster than others, granted.

XvArchonvX · Aug 01, 2006, 01:40 PM // 13:40

Major Kudos to the OP. I know he's recieved a LOT of flaming for having such a strict view on what roles each professions should play, but in all honesty, if you are using a PuG for an elite mission, you will likely be standing around for a LOOOOOOOOOOOOONG time trying to organize an effective 12 member cookie cutter group. If you want to organize a group with a new type of group build that no one is familiar with you will REALLY be waiting a long time to get things together.

There is nothing wrong with any particular class, and there is nothing wrong with using each class differently than they are stated here. However for a PuG to be able to have a chance to make it all the way through, you really have to have a group of people gathered that know what their role is as well as how their role works together with the group. Accepting people who are not well suited for the group will likely not only waste your time, but waste theirs as well, so in the long run, you're not doing them the favor you thought you were.

As for monk builds, I just thought I would throw in that Energy Drain is an excellent elite for monks since it is a strong energy management skill that is not reliant on an enchantment. Even though there will be a dedicated battery in your group, this will stretch him less and give your group a fighting chance if he drops.

Also if I may ask, I have seen a lot of people upset about how the OP said that mesmers are best suited in 1v1, and therefore not really helpful here. What is incorrect about this statement? I have a mesmer and love him, but I know that he simply will be very little help in an elite mission. Simply put, getting through these missions is generally heavily reliant on using AoE against your enemies and mesmers really don't have anything beyond E-Surge or Chaos Storm. My mesmer gets through most PvE just fine with a good spammable degen build, but I don't see how they could fit into an elite mission. Perhaps a fast cast nuker? If this is the implication I would still argue that a stronger nuke is more necessary than a fast one. Either way I would like to hear from those who disagree. I'm curious if they know some way a mesmer could work in an Elite mission or if this is simply a feeling of bitterness in response to an assumption that mesmers are being marked as being less of a class simply because they are not chosen of Elite Missions.

Kook~NBK~ · Aug 01, 2006, 02:05 PM // 14:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ira Blinks

to all those "ZOMG MESMERS ARE NOT USELESS" whiners
OP just listed builds (or rather professions) currently required by PuGs. Like it or not, thats the way it is.

No, The OP took a direct shot at Mesmers and assassins. If he were "just listing builds currently required by PuGs" He wouldn't have mentioned them at all. Instead, he said that Mesmers & Assassins were basically useless in the elite missions.

Quote:

Can you do it some other way? Sure you can, but you need a group that accomodates your other role. Asking that from PuG is retarded.

I disagree again, The best PUGs are the ones that can adapt to the skills & strengths of builds that aren't "cookie cutter." What's retarded about wanting to be in a PUG that's got players that are skilled enough to deviate from the cookie cutters?

Quote:

PuG work only when everyone knows their simple (cookie-cutter?) predefined role and does it w/o anyone giving him orders to do so.

Are you saying that only cookie-cutter PUGs work? Because knowing your role & doing it well is a key to success in any party.

Quote:

People like you made me give up on leading PuGs, because you always want to look sooo very different and claim to be sooo very experienced, but in the end all you get is one completely disfunctional group.

Rubbish.

Ahh well, I guess I'll just bring My Warrior. Or My Monk. Or my Ranger. Or My Ele. It's all good to me.

SnipiousMax · Aug 01, 2006, 02:52 PM // 14:52

Archon has the right idea. The OP's opinions of underdog classes aside, the build he outlined is the best chance a PuG has. You'll note the disclaimer, "not for guild/alliance groups." Pug's lack the neccesary coordination for using unique, insightful, non-cookie cutter builds. It's not that they are bad, or any less viable, or any less enjoyable. Its just that stepping out of the box requires a very dedicated team, and a good amount of coordinated teamwork. I'd say he did miss the enchant strip, but What he outlined isn't the end of all Deep/Warren builds, its just a VERY simple, EASY to use build, where the roles are clearly defined and confusion will be minimal. The OP is getting flamed needlessly. Rather than argue with him about the viablity of a 'sin primary, present other options.

Caleb · Aug 01, 2006, 03:11 PM // 15:11

Thank goodness no one is required to follow this "guide" for the missions.... lol.

Luckily most people that would blindly listen to someone else telling them what build to run and what skills to use will all be grouping together.

Zinger314 · Aug 01, 2006, 03:11 PM // 15:11

Mental note: Don't write another controversial guide.

To those complaining about the Mesmer role, it's the mentality of PuGs. I won't deny that Mesmers have a use (Cry of Frustration is Awesome!). But people believe that Mesmers don't have a use.

I have never seen a PuG look specifically for a Mesmer.

If you want a Mesmer reliably, get a guild group.

Don't shoot the messenger. Please.

Made a few edits with respect to the development.

Hengis · Aug 01, 2006, 03:17 PM // 15:17

Thinking about taking my necro along.. but what would be better?

N/Mo with SS and area healing? or N/Me with Arcane Echo and SS?

Zinger314 · Aug 01, 2006, 03:24 PM // 15:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hengis Stone

Thinking about taking my necro along.. but what would be better?

N/Mo with SS and area healing? or N/Me with Arcane Echo and SS?

As I've said, Arcane Echo is a blessing for SS. Plus, it enables you to use Inspired/Revealed Enchantment for Kanaxai.

Yanman.be · Aug 01, 2006, 03:28 PM // 15:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

Spike DPS, yes. Sustained, no. Assassins are good because they kill low AL/HP targets very quickly, however, since everything in the Elite mission is lv. 24-28, that situation rarely happens. Plus powerful AoE > Powerful single-target DPS anyday.

Plus, Assassins who go to the front lines are vulnerable to enemies. Which means, even with AoD or Recall, they stand a good chance at getting clobbered.

I've edited the OP so that it offends you a little less...

My sin build is great at killing high level targets....period.

Themis · Aug 01, 2006, 03:37 PM // 15:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

Also if I may ask, I have seen a lot of people upset about how the OP said that mesmers are best suited in 1v1, and therefore not really helpful here. What is incorrect about this statement? I have a mesmer and love him, but I know that he simply will be very little help in an elite mission. Simply put, getting through these missions is generally heavily reliant on using AoE against your enemies and mesmers really don't have anything beyond E-Surge or Chaos Storm. My mesmer gets through most PvE just fine with a good spammable degen build, but I don't see how they could fit into an elite mission. Perhaps a fast cast nuker? If this is the implication I would still argue that a stronger nuke is more necessary than a fast one. Either way I would like to hear from those who disagree. I'm curious if they know some way a mesmer could work in an Elite mission or if this is simply a feeling of bitterness in response to an assumption that mesmers are being marked as being less of a class simply because they are not chosen of Elite Missions.

I have some responses to your questions :
Mesmer has two roles in Elite missions in tank/nuke groups :
1. Be a tank insurance. As the OP stated "If a Thorn Wolf or an Oni of the Deep attacks the casters, you are in trouble.". That is correct. And a Mesmer with a Incompetence/Signet of Midnight plus Epidemic is a (quick) insurance. Trapper is another, though slower.
2. Make things faster : Deep wound + Epidemic sure make thinks alot easier for the nukers. And some blinding here and there sure make things alot easier for the tankers and gives a break to healers.

Of course you can ignore all this. That's GW : you can always do things in several different ways

Zinger314 · Aug 01, 2006, 03:45 PM // 15:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doomlord_Slayermann

Are you really that oblivious to the comments people are making? We're not "shooting" you because you gave this message to us. We're shooting you because you have given this message to all the newer and more ignorant players and told them point blank that cookie-cutter builds are the only way to go. That is pathetic.

By definition, PuG = Ignorant.

If you attempt to LFG as a Mesmer or Assassin an Elite Mission outpost, expect to be sitting for a long time. You don't even have to read the guide to know that.

Inde · Aug 01, 2006, 04:16 PM // 16:16

Let's have a discussion without resorting to insults and flames please.

Reza · Aug 01, 2006, 04:30 PM // 16:30

Whats a PuG? THAT's the question!
is it something like random teams?

Spike · Aug 01, 2006, 04:33 PM // 16:33

How many people here that ARE complaining have ACTUALLY done the warren? I have MANY MANY times and the OP is RIGHT. The ONLY times we have got to urogz have been WITH this builds mentioned in this guide. In fact most of the times we did'nt even have a warrior. I have played in MANY other groups that have included mesmers and sins. They hardly ever got past the 1st room. Sins ARE useless. All they do here is die in seconds. Mesmers are not much better. This is based on playing the mission MANY MANY times. So before you start ranting at me for saying you fav class is crap please get some experence in this mission and have completed it.

While a mesmer could help with urgoz, he is useless for the rest of the mission. So why bring someone along who is only going to be helpfull at the end, when you could have someone who will be usefull though out the mission.

The group make up that has been the most sucessfull for me anyway has been 4 Rangers (trapers and spirts (EW QZ EOE) , 2 Nukers, 2 Nercos (1 SS and 1Bip), 3 monks and 1 Port Rit lord. I'm not saying you can't play other groups, the questions you have to ask is this, how long do you want to spend doing this mission and do you want to finish it.

The Herbalizer · Aug 01, 2006, 04:34 PM // 16:34

EDIT Rename it pls, "Elite Mission Cookie-Cutter Guide".

There is NO NEED to make a cookie cutter guide to the elite missions.

Instead of making a guide to the elite missions which actually encourages pugs to take other classes such as mesmer which they wouldnt normally take you encourage them to stick to their cookie cutter mentality.

Making a guide to encourage people to use different builds would be nice. For example my hammer warrior/ele tank in tombs would out last any other tank I was with. Yet many would be like omg!!!!!!!!!!! he doesnt have a shield.

Zinger314 · Aug 01, 2006, 04:34 PM // 16:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reza

Whats a PuG? THAT's the question!
is it something like random teams?

PuG = Pick-up Group

Basically, a group where you don't know the majority of the players you are grouped with.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Herbalizer

There is NO NEED to make a cookie cutter guide to the elite missions.

I saw someone ask on GWO if a MM would be good for the mission. Someone in this thread asked if an SS with Heal Area was good.

Many people have asked me in-game what an Elite Mission was anyways.

Necessity is the first cousin of invention.